Message boards : Graphics cards (GPUs) : Which graphic card
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Hello, this are questions for the graphics cards specialists. | |
ID: 30059 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
I think Ti just means a "performance" version of a GPU, as opposed to an SE or Eco model for example. Cards with 'Ti' are faster/offer better performance, but not necessarily best value... | |
ID: 30061 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Thanks skgiven for your answers. | |
ID: 30062 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
I can see Titan there for ~900€. Not suggesting you buy one, but rather to use this nice price comparison portal :) | |
ID: 30071 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
I haven't included the Titan because it's not yet capable or running WU's here (new app required). It's performance will probably eclipse the GTX680's, and sit somewhere between a 680 and a 690 (dual GPU). The soon to be released GTX780 (also a CC3.5 'big Kepler', launch date May 23rd, 2013) should also surpass the GTX680, and the GTX770 (basically just a GTX680 with slightly higher clocks, CC3.0 I guess, launch date May 30th, 2013) should also slightly outperform the GTX680. For sure the titan will have a poor performance/price ratio at anywhere near current pricing. I made the mistake years ago buying GPUs for this project because of glowing predictions by the staff, and then they performed so poorly I had to quit the project and use them elsewhere. Lesson: don't buy the new GPU without seeing hard, cold performance figures. | |
ID: 30073 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Lesson: don't buy the new GPU without seeing hard, cold performance figures. I definitely agree. But out of curiousity: which card was that? MrS ____________ Scanning for our furry friends since Jan 2002 | |
ID: 30078 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
My guess is the GTX460, but if we go back to CC1.1 cards, it was really hit and miss and I got stung several times. | |
ID: 30087 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
I can see Titan there for ~900€. Not suggesting you buy one, but rather to use this nice price comparison portal :) Thanks ETA that is neat site. I even see some cases with lots of fans. I will browse there for a while. The Titan however will stay out of reach for me ;-) ____________ Greetings from TJ | |
ID: 30103 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
One more question. I see a good offer in the Netherlands for an EVGA GTX650Ti SSC 2GB. So that will be super super clocked. Is that the same as over clocking? If yes can I change it via settings? | |
ID: 30105 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
It is clocking above the level nVidia suggested, but EVGA assures you it will work. And usually says it's binned the chips and only put higher performing ones onto SSC models, whereas nVidia can only create their spec to something which worse chips will achieve with enough headroom. | |
ID: 30107 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
One more question. I see a good offer in the Netherlands for an EVGA GTX650Ti SSC 2GB. So that will be super super clocked. Is that the same as over clocking? If yes can I change it via settings? Is that the one clocked at 1071MHz? It should be a good card. My 3 MSI 650 Ti cards were factory OCed at 993MHz and they're all running fine at 1084MHz. Haven't had many EVGA GPUs, but the one's I've had have been very good. I still have an EVGA GTX 460 running and it's the best of the four 460 cards that I've owned. I'd recommend MSI Afterburner for controlling the GPU settings and fans. It pretty much handles any brand GPU (both NV and ATI/AMD), multiple varied GPUs, has fewer bugs than the other control apps and is updated regularly. | |
ID: 30110 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
My guess is the GTX460, but if we go back to CC1.1 cards, it was really hit and miss and I got stung several times. SKG, you have a fine memory. Have you been devouring coconut oil? I bought 4 GTX 460 GPUs to run GPUGrid, as they were predicted to be the most power efficient and best bang for buck compared to the energy gulping 470 and 480. Turns out that the GPUGrid app only used 2/3 of the shaders so the performance was poor. It took 2 years to fix that software bug and that was 2 years I couldn't run GPUGrid. On the upside the 460s worked fine at all other projects like PrimeGrid, POEM, Einstein, WCG, SETI, Collatz, Dtrgn etc. Now we have a similar issue with the titan. So I'd strongly recommend waiting to see hard, cold results before considering any purchases for any project, but especially here. | |
ID: 30111 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
The tests that the card makers use for binning the chips for overclocking are probably directed to graphics use, and not really distributed computing, which has much more stringent requirements and uses other parts of the GPU more heavily than are used for games. As the work units get harder and the temperature rises, you will probably see errors. Then, you will need to reduce the clock on the GPU chip yourself. | |
ID: 30112 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
The tests that the card makers use for binning the chips for overclocking are probably directed to graphics use, and not really distributed computing, which has much more stringent requirements and uses other parts of the GPU more heavily than are used for games. As the work units get harder and the temperature rises, you will probably see errors. Then, you will need to reduce the clock on the GPU chip yourself. Not really agreeing with this at least for the 650 Ti. It seems to have very modest standard clocking compared to other NV cards (SKG points out for instance that his 660 has very little OC headroom). My experience (a lot, years of GPU computing and 19 cards running at the moment on various projects) with factory OCed GPUs is that they DO generally run faster than non-factory-OCed models. As far as heat with the 650 Ti, mine are all running GPUGrid OCed at 45-49C with quite low fan speeds. That's cooler than any of my other cards except for a tie with 3 HD 7790s running at Einstein. | |
ID: 30114 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
The more overclocking, the greater the chance for problems. I was not referring to your specific 650 Ti, but a "super super clocked" card sounds like problems to me. And the overclocking does not need to produce high temperatures for the problems to appear; I have seen problems below 60 C. A high temperature just adds to the likelihood. The binning that the chip makers do (e.g., TSMC, though I don't know that they do for GPU chips) is far beyond the capabilities of the board makers, and exercises many more functions of the chip. That is because they have access to the chip before it is even packaged, and can afford the high cost of the test machines. | |
ID: 30117 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
The more overclocking, the greater the chance for problems. ... a "super super clocked" card sounds like problems to me. ... A high temperature just adds to the likelihood. ... (e.g., TSMC, though I don't know that they do for GPU chips) There's a lot of guessing and conjecture going on here. Any concrete experience? Evidence? In fact, I expect that it is a misnomer to call what the card makers do "binning". It is really just qualification tests on random samples of a lot to ensure that the chips don't fail outright. That is better than nothing, but does not ensure trouble-free operation in distributed computing projects. More conjecture. Do you know that EVGA and other board makers aren't using binning supplied by the foundry? Did you know that even chips from the same wafer can have very widely varying capabilities? My experience is that factory OCed cards work at their factory overclocks on DC projects, often significantly higher. My experience is also that DC projects are generally less demanding and do not stress GPUs as much as heavy gaming. | |
ID: 30119 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
More conjecture. Do you know that EVGA and other board makers aren't using binning supplied by the foundry? Did you know that even chips from the same wafer can have very widely varying capabilities? My experience is that factory OCed cards work at their factory overclocks on DC projects, often significantly higher. My experience is also that DC projects are generally less demanding and do not stress GPUs as much as heavy gaming. You can look at what Asus says; they are the best at selecting their chips that I know of in the TOP program; they test chips at random in incoming lots. And yes, I know that chips tested before packaging where all the pads are available can be tested much more thoroughly. You are speculating; cite a source that says that Nvidia supplies binned chips, and what card makers are using them (I would not be surprised if they test chips more thoroughly for use in supercompters, but that is another matter). Of course some overclocked cards work well until they don't; check it out the next time you get a failed work unit. "Less demanding" probably means you are looking at temperature, but not the different functions of the chips. For example, DC projects don't use the rasterizing units, which can produce more heat, but will use various other functions. | |
ID: 30121 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
OC'ed cards tend to come with a higher price tag, but as well as the improved clocks you get components of better quality than reference models. Typically, their boards have better quality components, the heatsink dissipates better and the fans are bigger, better at cooling and make less noise. If an OC'ed GPU struggles with a WU type, you can downclock it a bit or up the Voltage slightly, and it's still going to be more efficient than a reference model. If it breaks RTM it, and you are likely going to get a better warranty on such cards. | |
ID: 30124 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
You are speculating; cite a source that says that Nvidia supplies binned chips, and what card makers are using them Interesting reversal of "logic" or lack thereof. I was taking issue with your speculation. I said: > Do you know that EVGA and other board makers aren't using binning supplied by the foundry? > Did you know that even chips from the same wafer can have very widely varying capabilities? So can you cite a source that says that Nvidia doesn't supply binned chips? | |
ID: 30126 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
One more question. I see a good offer in the Netherlands for an EVGA GTX650Ti SSC 2GB. So that will be super super clocked. Is that the same as over clocking? If yes can I change it via settings? Yes that is the one. But I saw a GTX 660 for only little more money. Same 192bit bus but more stream processors. So I am still a bit in doubt. ____________ Greetings from TJ | |
ID: 30128 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
You are speculating; cite a source that says that Nvidia supplies binned chips, and what card makers are using them That is another way of saying that you have no evidence to prove the assertion that the chips are binned. But you may believe it if you want to. As for heatsinks, power supply components, etc., they often are larger for overclocked cards to handle the extra heat and current load, but that has nothing to do with error rates (except to make them worse if they weren't oversized). I think you need to look at your error rates, which is the relevant data, and stop speculating as to what happens in any given factory. | |
ID: 30129 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Yes that is the one. But I saw a GTX 660 for only little more money. Same 192bit bus but more stream processors. So I am still a bit in doubt. The GTX 660 is great. The 650Ti has a 128-bit bus (not 192), less L2 cache, and fewer ROPs, in addition to the reduction of stream processors. The 650TiBoost is a 660 in the other regards, but has the same number of stream processors as the 650Ti. | |
ID: 30131 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Yes that is the one. But I saw a GTX 660 for only little more money. Same 192bit bus but more stream processors. So I am still a bit in doubt. I agree, if the price is close, get the 660. Did you see skgiven's test and analysis of the 650 TI, 650 Ti Boost, 660 and 660 Ti a few days ago. Read it, it's good information. There's also companion information in the later posts of the same thread. Edit: Here's a link to the thread: http://www.gpugrid.net/forum_thread.php?id=3156&nowrap=true#29914 | |
ID: 30132 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
You are speculating; cite a source that says that Nvidia supplies binned chips, and what card makers are using them Do you really not understand how you turned this around, or are you just trying to be difficult? I hope you're trying to be difficult, it's easier to fix ;-) | |
ID: 30133 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
You are speculating; cite a source that says that Nvidia supplies binned chips, and what card makers are using them Be nice, guys. We are all nerds on the same team. Why not chalk it up to: "I feel comfortable having an overclocked GPU" and "I feel more comfortable having a reference clocked GPU". Debating slight performance differences of 650Ti models is really splitting hairs. | |
ID: 30135 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Yes that is the one. But I saw a GTX 660 for only little more money. Same 192bit bus but more stream processors. So I am still a bit in doubt. Yes I saw that. I read most technical information from skgiven, seeing his credits and RAC he knows his stuff :) Also at other projects. But I have read all the information from other "specialists" as well and I will go for the 660 from EVGA, not SC or SSC as they are to expensive for me at the moment. @ matlock I guess I was mistaken the 650Ti Boost has a 192-bit bus and the 650Ti 128, right? ____________ Greetings from TJ | |
ID: 30146 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Jim, you're of course right that higher clock speeds increase the risks of calculation errors. But in a well designed chip and with proper error-detecting tests (not sure we have these for GPUs..) this is not a smooth transition, but rather almost a step function. For my GTX660Ti that's "1228 MHz still works at GPU-Grid, 1241 MHz won't". While I do get occasional errors here (I've been watching it closer lately), these are always WUs which also fail for everyone else. So for me I conclude that I'm safe at 50 MHz over the top clock speed the manufacturer choose for my (heavily) factory-OCed card, even for Noelia tasks. | |
ID: 30154 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
in a well designed chip and with proper error-detecting tests (not sure we have these for GPUs..) this is not a smooth transition, but rather almost a step function. For my GTX660Ti that's "1228 MHz still works at GPU-Grid, 1241 MHz won't". This fits experience also. It's also true across projects and not only here. As my GPUs get older, I usually have to slowly step down the OC speed to have them run 100% trouble free. @Beyond: this "only uses 2/3 of its shaders" was not a software error. It's a design choice nVidia makes, which turns out to be more or less helpful depending on the code. All chips after GF110 and GF110 use this scheme (so even Titan). MrS But then explain why ACEMD properly uses all the shaders now. As I understand it ACEMD improperly detected the number of shaders in the GF106 (or maybe more precisely those settings were not included in ACEMD, or ACEMD was hardwired to always assume a particular shader ratio). Then a couple of years later ACEMD was finally updated (corrected) to properly detect and use all the shaders in the GF106 based GPUs. Sure sounds like a software problem to me. At least that was the way it was explained to me in a different thread. Someone correct me if I have the details wrong. | |
ID: 30157 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
I think the super-scalar cards are now preferentially favoured by the application. When the top GPU's were the GTX480 to GTX590's it made sense to favour these Compute Capable 2.0 architectures, for project optimization reasons. It now makes more sense to use an app that favours the CC3.0 GeForce 600 GPU's which are all super-scalar. This just happens to make the CC2.1 cards (superscalar GeForce 400 and 500 series GPUs) perform better than they did, and also makes my old GPU comparison tables (with the older apps) obsolete. | |
ID: 30162 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
I think the super-scalar cards are now preferentially favoured by the application. When the top GPU's were the GTX480 to GTX590's it made sense to favour these Compute Capable 2.0 architectures, for project optimization reasons. It now makes more sense to use an app that favours the CC3.0 GeForce 600 GPU's which are all super-scalar. This just happens to make the CC2.1 cards (superscalar GeForce 400 and 500 series GPUs) perform better than they did, and also makes my old GPU comparison tables (with the older apps) obsolete. Interesting. If this is the way it works it would seem to be a good idea to allow the sending of different optimized apps to different GPU types. That's the way other projects handle this kind of situation AFAIK. | |
ID: 30163 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
That's just my take on the situation. Only the researchers could tell you if that was the case, or how close it is to the situation. | |
ID: 30166 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
That's just my take on the situation. Only the researchers could tell you if that was the case, or how close it is to the situation. Other projects seem to handle the same issues easily. What's so hard about setting up a different queue? Whats so hard about having different apps optimized for different NVidia class cards? I'm just not seeing why it should be so difficult. Why not ask for help from some of the other projects, or if need be even hire one of them to set up the queues, etc? | |
ID: 30167 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
I'm just not seeing why it should be so difficult. Why not ask for help from some of the other projects, or if need be even hire one of them to set up the queues, etc? That is very difficult in a scientific setting. It has a lot to do with funding and research groups. Working for another science group, even on hire, does mean that work for the own group will come on hold. Personally I think that it is more important for the GPUGRID project to get the science right, as that will help cure some terrible diseases. If there is time left or a trainee/internship can work on several apps. Making one good app is better though for updating and maintenance than several with risk that something is forgotten etc. ____________ Greetings from TJ | |
ID: 30187 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
I'm just not seeing why it should be so difficult. Why not ask for help from some of the other projects, or if need be even hire one of them to set up the queues, etc? You may be right. The other side of the coin though is that the work is going to done done much faster if more crunchers and GPUs are accommodated. That's assuming that the project needs the crunching capacity. Maybe it doesn't. How much work is lost and computing time wasted by apps that don't work correctly with many GPUs and WUs that aren't formatted correctly. I think we can see by our experience that a lot is lost. Trade-offs? I'd say there's always trade-offs. Seriously though, setting up new queues should be a simple matter in BOINC. There's more than one forum / e-mail list where developers can get help from others who have already climbed the mountain. One can't be too proud to ask though... | |
ID: 30203 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
I'm just not seeing why it should be so difficult. Why not ask for help from some of the other projects, or if need be even hire one of them to set up the queues, etc? I agree with you Beyond the more is crunched the better it is for the project. ____________ Greetings from TJ | |
ID: 30208 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
I don't think the issue is with the creation of new queues, they have been added and deleted before. It would be more of a maintenance issue. | |
ID: 30209 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Let's take a look at the hard numbers. I've compared the average runtimes of 5 recent Noelia WUs on fast linux hosts (GPUs are less likely to be overlcocked here) and took the theoretical SP performance into account: | |
ID: 30225 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
If I have understand correctly, the lower the result of TFlops times runtime, the more efficient the card? | |
ID: 30231 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
I think the super-scalar cards are now preferentially favoured by the application. When the top GPU's were the GTX480 to GTX590's it made sense to favour these Compute Capable 2.0 architectures, for project optimization reasons. It now makes more sense to use an app that favours the CC3.0 GeForce 600 GPU's which are all super-scalar. This just happens to make the CC2.1 cards (superscalar GeForce 400 and 500 series GPUs) perform better than they did, and also makes my old GPU comparison tables (with the older apps) obsolete. You disagree? Going back a year to when the top GPU's were CC2.0, a GTX470 did 29% more work than a GTX560Ti. Now, with newer apps, a GTX470 can only do 7% more work than a GTX560Ti. With super-scaler cards you can never utilize all the shaders fully, but I think its went up from 66% to around 80%. The theoretical GFLOPS are not a good indicator of performance here, otherwise the GTX650Ti would have been 16% faster than a GTX470 from the outset (as suggested by their GFLOPS), and we wouldn't have needed correction factors to accurately compare GPU's of different compute capability. ____________ FAQ's HOW TO: - Opt out of Beta Tests - Ask for Help | |
ID: 30282 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Going back a year to when the top GPU's were CC2.0, a GTX470 did 29% more work than a GTX560Ti. I think it's because the newer apps are made with CUDA4.2. With super-scaler cards you can never utilize all the shaders fully, ... It's true even for a non super-scalar card :) I would say that the non-super-scalar cards (still) have a significant advantage over the super-scalar cards in the shader utilizaiton. ... but I think its went up from 66% to around 80%. This advantage is less than it was with the CUDA3.1 apps (it was around 33%) It's too bad from the cruncher's perspective that nVidia doesn't make non-super-scalar GPUs anymore, but (as kind of compensation) the good news is that the CUDA4.2 can better utilize the super-scalar architecture than the CUDA3.1. This discussion is difficult, because we're talking about the performance of a system consisting many parts, all of these parts continuously changing over time, and this change could alter (like it did in the past) their order of significance: 1. I/a The GPU 2. I/b The code running on the GPU 3. II - The computer (also a system consisting many parts) 4. II/a The operating system of the computer 5. II/b The optimization of the BOINC client for the hardware it's running on 6. II/c The hardware components of the computer (beside the GPU) This is the actual order. Except for item 2, the participants can optimize this system. But item 2 is the fundamental of this optimization: I've changed my Core 2 Quad systems to Core i7 systems to achieve better overall performance by eliminating the PCIe bandwith bottleneck which reduced the performance of the CUDA3.1 client. The CUDA 4.2 client is better in regards of this issue also, so no such change (read it as investment) is needed now from the participants. But you still have to spare a CPU thread per GPU (item 5) | |
ID: 30287 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
This advantage is less than it was with the CUDA3.1 apps (it was around 33%) Interesting. I did notice the large performance gain for GF106 cards with the CUDA 4.2 app. I didn't realize that the new app also improved the situation with PCIe. Performance is not too degraded now even for cards in an X4 slot. Thanks. | |
ID: 30300 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
But you still have to spare a CPU thread per GPU (item 5) This all is good information Retvari thanks. One more question: 'keep one CPU core free', does that mean two on an i7 when HT is switched on? ____________ Greetings from TJ | |
ID: 30309 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
I think its went up from 66% to around 80%. Then why would I still be calculating ~66% for a sample size of 3+2? @TJ: I think he means logical cores. MrS ____________ Scanning for our furry friends since Jan 2002 | |
ID: 30318 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
You included a GTX660Ti which going by the theoretical TFlops is identical to the GTX670. We know it's memory bottle-necked as are other cards to varying extents in the GTX600 series - the Memory controller of my GTX660Ti's is 41%, my GTX660 is 31% and the 650TiBoost was ~27%. The theoretical TFlops is not that useful for comparisons. Even years ago we needed to use correction factors. Your sample is also skewed, even between your 580 and 570 the numbers don't add up. The theory says a 580 is 13% faster than a 570, but your sample has a 6% gap. There should be a 4% performance difference between a GTX480 and a GTX570, your sample has it at 9.7%. So the 660Ti isn't a 670, the 570 is probably OC'ed, and your 580 is from this system, | |
ID: 30322 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Hello guys, | |
ID: 30327 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
I'm using 7.0.27 on Ubuntu 13.04, with 304.88 drivers. New-ish OS, but mature apps and drivers - Working fine. | |
ID: 30333 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
I'm using 7.0.27 on Ubuntu 13.04, with 304.88 drivers. New-ish OS, but mature apps and drivers - Working fine. That is also my idea "if it works leave it alone". I Installed the new GTX660 and all the software from the CD. BOINC has a message that an app will not work. Probably due to the 305.xx version of the nVidia drivers. I am updating these now to 314.xx and see if that works. I will leave BOINC than on 7.0.28, that I'm using on that PC. ____________ Greetings from TJ | |
ID: 30335 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Is it wise to update to the latest BOINC version 7.0.64? Yes. There are a huge number of bugfixes in 7.0.64. I'm running it on 11 machines and while not yet perfect, it's better than anything previous. BTW it's the recommended stable version currently: http://boinc.berkeley.edu/download_all.php | |
ID: 30336 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
More questions | |
ID: 30341 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
[quote]I'm using 7.0.27 on Ubuntu 13.04, with 304.88 drivers. New-ish OS, but mature apps and drivers - Working fine. fyi, app_config.xml only works in 7.0.40 and higher, it is no related to Nvidia driver. | |
ID: 30351 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
I whish I had listened to skgiven! | |
ID: 30365 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
I am updating BOINC to 7.0.64 and get error message about a key, error 1402 Googled the error, seems you have a permissions problem. It has nothing to do with 7.0.64. Read this, follow the instructions: http://boinc.berkeley.edu/dev/forum_thread.php?id=3248#20925 | |
ID: 30367 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
I am updating BOINC to 7.0.64 and get error message about a key, error 1402 Thanks Beyond that was the trick. Well all day busy with installing just a card. Booting my system takes 11 minutes? Have run all sorts of diagnostics but seems something with PCAngel is the installer and repair utility from Windows via which the system builder installed it. Not funny. Anyhow all is running now, an NOELIA on the new GTX660 seems to take 78 hours to complete? I'll see. But system is slow, I have now used 5 cores to crunch Rosetta and one (0.737) for GPUGRID, so 2 left for other things and still slow. Even browsing. I have in FF all my project pages and tasks lists, and switching from one to the other and back is not always fast. The GPU load is around 50% and the GPU clock most at 1110MHz but sometimes lower. Even when typing this FF was not responding for a few seconds. At the moment I am not happy with my updates and tired. I go to sleep but hope to read some suggestions tomorrow from the experts out there. Thanks for the help and input. ____________ Greetings from TJ | |
ID: 30371 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
A NOELIA WU should take 12 or 13h on a GTX660, 78h is way too long! | |
ID: 30373 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
A NOELIA WU should take 12 or 13h on a GTX660, 78h is way too long! Thanks skgiven, but you have to help me with the CPU kernel usage. Is that what the CPU is using? It's around 88%. According to process explorer I/O is very little, most of the time zero. From the 12GB mem, 4.5GB is used. I don't know what is wrong with this system it is my only not Dell and having issues from the start. NOELIA is 53% ready in 11:20 hours, estimated still 51:14 hours, but that is not right. I use now a 550Ti and that is on a Dell quad with vista 32 bit and is running NOELIA's fine in approx 40 hours with a steady GPU load of 91%, monitoring with EVGA NV-Z. The 660 is in the i7 with vista ultimate 64 bit and has varying GPU load of 5%, 43% up to 63% as I have seen as highest. GPU clock mostly at 1110MHz. One thing I found is that last night there was 28GB free on my C-drive and now only 7.84 free. Don't know what happened yet?? Closing FF and checking if it was indeed killed, kept the CPU usage at 88%. There is not a lot of software installed on this system and use it for crunching and some browsing now and then mostly all BOINC project related. After yesterday's update to he GTX660, newer driver 314.22 and new BOINC 7.0.64 the system seems slower with building up the graphics. Blank screens for a second when switching and such. The remaining time in BOINC Manager is flickering all the time, not on my other 2 PC currently crunching. Any ideas I can do? Thanks ____________ Greetings from TJ | |
ID: 30383 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
You included a GTX660Ti which going by the theoretical TFlops is identical to the GTX670. We know it's memory bottle-necked as are other cards to varying extents in the GTX600 series - the Memory controller of my GTX660Ti's is 41%, my GTX660 is 31% and the 650TiBoost was ~27%. The theoretical TFlops is not that useful for comparisons. Even years ago we needed to use correction factors. Your sample is also skewed, even between your 580 and 570 the numbers don't add up. The theory says a 580 is 13% faster than a 570, but your sample has a 6% gap. There should be a 4% performance difference between a GTX480 and a GTX570, your sample has it at 9.7%. So the 660Ti isn't a 670, the 570 is probably OC'ed, and your 580 is from this system, By using the theoretical GFlops I actually deduce the current correction factor (between the included GPUs). And of course I can't know the real clock speed, that's why I'm not concerned about 5% differences - which is fine if I'm looking for the 33% elephant in the room. So let's add some more numbers: runtime in ks | theoretical performance in TFlops | TFlops*runtime GTX 580: 39.49 | 1.58 | 62.4 GTX 570: 41.92 | 1.40 | 58.7 GTX 480: 46.00 | 1.34 | 61.6 GTX690: 30.22 | 2.81 | 84.9 GTX 660Ti: 38.07 | 2.46 | 93.7 GTX660: 42.21 | 1.88 | 79.3 GTX 560Ti: 67.71 | 1.26 | 85.3 The difference between GTX690 and GTX660Ti might actually be attributed to the memory bus. The GTX660 shows exceptional performance (not unlike what we see in real world - it is the new bang-for-the-buck king here), but this ~5% advantage might easily be explained by an OC. Overall I still see 2 distincly different classes: CC 2.0 cards around 60 ks*TFlops and super scalar cards around 90 ks*TFlops. However, if I exclude the GTX660Ti (due to memory constraints) and leave the GTX660 in (OC?) the average of these cards shifts downwards to 83 ks*TFlops. That's better than a pure 2/3 rule (in which case the average would have been 90), but still significantly less than what the "non-super" scalar cards achieve. This might well be the improvement you've been reading about and actually seems like a realistiv number to me. MrS ____________ Scanning for our furry friends since Jan 2002 | |
ID: 30402 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
A NOELIA WU should take 12 or 13h on a GTX660, 78h is way too long! Thanks skgiven, but you have to help me with the CPU kernel usage.Task Manager, View, Show Kernel Times. Is that what the CPU is using? It's around 88%88% would be total CPU usage. Kernel usage is less (shown in red), and I just wanted to know if it was high or low (roughly). You are using 6 CPU cores which is 75% of the CPU and running a NOELIA WU (which Should use around half of a CPU), totaling 81%. The system is probably using ~3%, so something(s) else is using ~4% of your overall CPU (32% of a thread). I suspect the Noelia WU might not be using ~50% of a CPU core, and something else is using more than 4%. Could you check this; Boinc Manager (advanced view), tasks, click on the NOELIA WU and then Properties (to the left). CPU time should be ~half of elapsed time. According to process explorer I/O is very little, most of the time zero. From the 12GB mem, 4.5GB is used.Go by the 53% in 11.2h, rather than the estimated time remaining. That means the WU should take just over 21h to complete. You might see the estimated remaining time depreciate faster than the wall clock. The 660 is in the i7 with vista ultimate 64 bit and has varying GPU load of 5%, 43% up to 63% as I have seen as highest. GPU clock mostly at 1110MHz.Not sure what you mean by 5%? 43% to 63% means there is a bottleneck somewhere. Perhaps the CPU, PCIE freq, another app (system or more likely Rosetta), or something else... One thing I found is that last night there was 28GB free on my C-drive and now only 7.84 free. Don't know what happened yet??Rosetta - look at a tasks properties in Boinc. Closing FF and checking if it was indeed killed, kept the CPU usage at 88%.Rules out FF, but not add ons (Java, downloaders, scripts...) After yesterday's update to he GTX660, newer driver 314.22 and new BOINC 7.0.64 the system seems slower with building up the graphics. Blank screens for a second when switching and such. The remaining time in BOINC Manager is flickering all the time, not on my other 2 PC currently crunching.A new driver might be in order, but I would start by suspending Rosetta work and see if the GPU usage rises. If that doesn't improve things, do a restart with Rosetta WU's still suspended (the mini WU's do checkpoint). For crunching, we recommend that the HDD has 10GB free space, with no more than 80% used. Not sure what type you have, but if it's a standard hard disk drive (not a Solid State Drive) and you have little space on it, that could be a problem, especially if running Rosetta WU's. ____________ FAQ's HOW TO: - Opt out of Beta Tests - Ask for Help | |
ID: 30407 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
MrS., I did some similar calculations and comparisons myself (different cards though). Some even on my own systems (so those were as accurate as possible), but others largely unknown. I think there are two things at play here; the move to the CUDA 4.2 app inherently favored the CC2.1 GPU's (and GK's) over the CC2.0 cards, and the 2/3 issue might have some sort of a fix; in some circumstances there is no 2/3rds limitation. This might actually be app specific. The performance of the different apps presently in use even varies somewhat between the GK's (memory bandwidth/shader cache related), and might vary by OS/WU type. | |
ID: 30409 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
A NOELIA WU should take 12 or 13h on a GTX660, 78h is way too long! The kernel is indeed low for 6 cores and little higher for 2 cores. Checking properties NOELIA WU is saying 15:08:53 Elapsed time and 11:15:07 CPU time. The WU is using 0.737 CPUs + 1 nVidia GPU. According to process explorer I/O is very little, most of the time zero. From the 12GB mem, 4.5GB is used.Go by the 53% in 11.2h, rather than the estimated time remaining. That means the WU should take just over 21h to complete. You might see the estimated remaining time depreciate faster than the wall clock. That is coorect, BOINC estimations are roughly indeed. The 660 is in the i7 with vista ultimate 64 bit and has varying GPU load of 5%, 43% up to 63% as I have seen as highest. GPU clock mostly at 1110MHz.Not sure what you mean by 5%? 43% to 63% means there is a bottleneck somewhere. Perhaps the CPU, PCIE freq, another app (system or more likely Rosetta), or something else... I mean that the load of the GPU is varying between 5 and 63% not constant 91% on my 550Ti in the other PC. How can I check the PCIE frequency? One thing I found is that last night there was 28GB free on my C-drive and now only 7.84 free. Don't know what happened yet??Rosetta - look at a tasks properties in Boinc. Rosetta is indeed using some space but this is on the D-drive and there is room enough. Closing FF and checking if it was indeed killed, kept the CPU usage at 88%.Rules out FF, but not add ons (Java, downloaders, scripts...) No downloaders active, other things I don't know. After yesterday's update to he GTX660, newer driver 314.22 and new BOINC 7.0.64 the system seems slower with building up the graphics. Blank screens for a second when switching and such. The remaining time in BOINC Manager is flickering all the time, not on my other 2 PC currently crunching.A new driver might be in order, but I would start by suspending Rosetta work and see if the GPU usage rises. If that doesn't improve things, do a restart with Rosetta WU's still suspended (the mini WU's do checkpoint). I have suspended them and indeed GPU load increases, now varying between 50 en 66%, still low. Total CPU is now 28% For crunching, we recommend that the HDD has 10GB free space, with no more than 80% used. Not sure what type you have, but if it's a standard hard disk drive (not a Solid State Drive) and you have little space on it, that could be a problem, especially if running Rosetta WU's. BOINC and the BOINC DATA are on the D-drive with 825GB free. So I guess that is not the problem. Perhaps I need to do a complete new install from the OS on this PC, perhaps Win7 buying? But that will take a lo of time and if I can avoid it with help from yours that would be great. Thanks ____________ Greetings from TJ | |
ID: 30412 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Is it perhaps an idea to update the the latest nVidia driver 320.18? | |
ID: 30413 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
You could use GPUZ to see what PCIE speed the GPU is operating at. The PCIE performance impact isn't known for each WU type. | |
ID: 30417 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
You could use GPUZ to see what PCIE speed the GPU is operating at. The PCIE performance impact isn't known for each WU type. Eventually the NOELIA finished in 20,9 hours so twice as fast than on the GTX550Ti but not as expected on the GTX660. I am waiting for Rosie to finish and will then install latest nVidia driver and boot. And run only GPUGRID overnight to see what happen. I use CCleaner as well. Aero is on I don't use it but cannot find to turn it off. Secodn wen right click on computer and properties I don't get the option "system properties" and neither all the rest to adjust for best performance. I did a sear but find nothing yet. Will buy a book over Win Vista. ____________ Greetings from TJ | |
ID: 30426 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
With not GPU task active, the system is very responsive, no blank pages and the lines in the BOINC Manager tray are not flickering. | |
ID: 30428 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Aero is on I don't use it but cannot find to turn it off. Right click "My Computer", left click "Advanced", click "Advanced System Settings", in the popup box under Performance click Settings, click adjust for best performance radio button. How big is you're swap file? | |
ID: 30429 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Aero is on I don't use it but cannot find to turn it off. Thanks, I have Aero of and set for best performance. The swap file size is 12578MB. ____________ Greetings from TJ | |
ID: 30430 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
The swap file size is 12578MB. That's plenty big enough, I thought maybe it might have something to do with you're lag problems, but it would seem not. | |
ID: 30431 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
What did GPUZ say about the PCIE width? | |
ID: 30433 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
What did GPUZ say about the PCIE width? I can not find the PCIE width. I did a clean installation of nVidia drivers last night but got the error message that drivers did not install. Then windows wanted to install some security patches that took more than 40 minutues so I went to sleep. This morning power it down, so a cold start and removed the nVidia driver (I thought) and installed the new. Again error that they have not been installed. I give in, I have the system switched off. Normally I don't give in that easy, but this system is causing a lot of pain. I don't know what to to than smash it against the wall, but I don't do that things. So perhaps next week a format c: and then completely install OS new. All Dell's I have, have no problems, less memory, less CPU capacity and speed, weaker OS versions, but no issues all run Aero and respond while crunching with ATI cards or the GTX550Ti (that is my weakest system but flawless for 4 years 24/7. ____________ Greetings from TJ | |
ID: 30441 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
GPUz now tells you the PCIE Bus interface details. In the example below it's operating at PCIE2.0 @ X16 rates, | |
ID: 30443 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
I found the problem with not installing the drivers it was a right problem i deleted the Administer when I changed the rights to got BOINC installed. | |
ID: 30449 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
On the hardware front, what is the clock speed of your i7-940 (CPUZ) and what is the PCIE Bus Interface listed as (see GPUZ picture in previous post), for example, PCIE2.0x16 @X16 2.0. I found the problem with not installing the drivers it was a right problem i deleted the Administer when I changed the rights to got BOINC installed.Installing the latest driver is some progress, but I'm not clear on the security changes you made. When you installed Boinc you didn't do it as a service did you? Is it set to run under your existing user account? I have also get to system to set to best performance.That removes some of the WDDM overhead. Is NVidia presently set to max performance? It would also be useful to be able to see your computer, and the tasks that it returns. I know you have already posted most of the info we have asked for but the first page of the logs is an easy way to post most of the info we need to see. But more questions:This is normal in this mode, but you can make individual changes to suit your preferences (user defined). 2. Only BOINC and EVGA NZ is running and only one project. GPUGRID with a NATHAN. GPU load still not high, around 50%. Has done 10% in 1 hour. Is this normal for a NATHAN on a GTX660?It's good to run with nothing else, so we can eliminate other apps as being a source of interference. I still think 50% is probably too low. There are two types of WU from Nate; NATHAN_dhf35 and NATHAN_KID_c22. On my W7 system the NATHAN_KID_c22 takes about 15.5h on a GTX660 and the NATHAN_dhf35 takes ~6.1h. 3. Can some tell me how I can isert a picture here like skgiven did in the threat below? I can show the EVGA screen so that you perhaps get an idea.You would need to upload a screen grab of CPUz to an image host provider (imageshack, photobucket, tinypic, postimage...). When you have the CPUZ app open, you can press Alt+PtrScn to just capture the open window as an image (without the background). You then need to past it into a photo app such as paint and save it as a .jpg file. After that upload it. A NOELIA is running on this system with a GTX550Ti at constant 95-96 GPU load. If you don't get anywhere, you might want to try the GPU in your other system, ____________ FAQ's HOW TO: - Opt out of Beta Tests - Ask for Help | |
ID: 30460 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
So let's add some more numbers: OK, GTX650TiBoost: 49.85 | 1.51 | 75.3 255px13x4-NOELIA_klebe_run2-2-3-RND0242_0 4473004 24 May 2013 | 21:20:02 UTC 25 May 2013 | 12:13:07 UTC Completed and validated 49,848.80 21,179.21 127,800.00 Long runs (8-12 hours on fastest card) v6.18 (cuda42) This GTX650Ti has a middling FOC, but it's in a PCIE2.0 system supported by a skt775 2.66GHz CPU, old dual channel DDR3 (1066), and I rounded up it's TFlops slightly. A fairly brutal demonstration of the self-inflicted GF600 GDDR Bus problems! Which graphic card I have suspected this for a while. Now I'm convinced. For GPUGrid, the really sweet GF600 GPU is unfortunately an OEM card - the GeForce GTX 660 (OEM) 1152:96:32/256B 130W. Anyone got one? - Thought not! Alas, we will have to settle for the GTX660, or until the GTX650TiBoost prices equilibriate for the more mid-range crunchers. While I would obviously like to see a non-OEM version of the 660/256 GPU, and other mid to high end GPU's with a 256bit bus, the GTX680 is bound to be struggling with a 256bit limitation. To progress the GF700 needs width! ____________ FAQ's HOW TO: - Opt out of Beta Tests - Ask for Help | |
ID: 30463 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Skgiven thanks for all your help that is very useful to me. | |
ID: 30474 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
PCAngel performs "real time backups"! Perhaps you can exclude everything Boinc, but I would still take it off. Such backup strategies are generally not needed, unless its a mission critical server. I bet you don't create hundreds of files every day. The most simple backup strategy for most users is to backup files to an external hard drive once every month or so. Anything more than that is an unnecessary chore. | |
ID: 30476 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
PCAngel performs "real time backups"! Perhaps you can exclude everything Boinc, but I would still take it off. Such backup strategies are generally not needed, unless its a mission critical server. I bet you don't create hundreds of files every day. The most simple backup strategy for most users is to backup files to an external hard drive once every month or so. Anything more than that is an unnecessary chore. I will remove it shortly, perhaps this is one reason of the long booting. One thin I forgot to mention: I have installed BOINC on the D-Drive with the data as a sub-directory, and did not thick any of the boxes in the installation process. I have this done always like this on all rigs. Not good? ____________ Greetings from TJ | |
ID: 30478 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
It might be the case that some cached files are continuously being backed up onto the primary drive or that PCAngel also backs up the D: drive, but I'm not familiar enough with that software to know exactly what it's doing. I think it's probably the culprit though. | |
ID: 30479 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
One thin I forgot to mention: I have installed BOINC on the D-Drive with the data as a sub-directory, and did not thick any of the boxes in the installation process. I have this done always like this on all rigs. Not good? I have always run BOINC from a separate drive (like D: for instance). It has never caused any problems so you can eliminate that as an issue. I'd say it IS good to keep it off the system dive (usually C: in windows). | |
ID: 30482 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
The PCAngels is removed, it has deleted the recovery partition as well. | |
ID: 30494 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
two screen dumps: | |
ID: 30496 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
After reading the thread about Low GPU useage. Here is my two cents worth. Please forgive if this has already been covered or is not relevant. | |
ID: 30501 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Before you reinstall the OS, I would suggest you try a few things. | |
ID: 30505 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
The GPU-Z screen: | |
ID: 30513 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
That version of GPU-Z is really old, look at you're GPU clock speed compared to the memory clock speed, there reversed. You should get the latest version. | |
ID: 30514 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
The GPU-Z screen:No issues there; it's PCIE2.0x16. Resetting the project will be tomorrow was this Nathan is finished.A partition is Not the same as a separate drive! You should have said this up front. Do an OS reinstall, Delete the partitions, Format and start again with one partition. ____________ FAQ's HOW TO: - Opt out of Beta Tests - Ask for Help | |
ID: 30515 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
A partition is Not the same as a separate drive! You should have said this up front. Do an OS reinstall, Delete the partitions, Format and start again with one partition. I have 4 pc's with one disk and they all have a C-partition with the OS and a D-partition, installed by Dell and no issues. The kernel times are very low (1-6%) even when crunching all the cores, and CPU use at 100% kernel keeps low. These systems don't have CUDA capable graphics cards though. I have also read at several places that it is not wise to have only one partition on a disk drive with the OS and all other stuff. But that is what skgiven is suggesting. If this will be the case and I need to re-install the OS, then I would prefer to use an SSD for the OS and the current disk for all the data (mainly BOINC). And perhaps Win7 as well. What do you think about this option? But skgiven also mentioned that high kernel times indicated a problem. What can that problem be. If the PC is over than a SSD and all the effort would be a waist of time and money. Any way to check this please? Thanks. ____________ Greetings from TJ | |
ID: 30520 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
I have 4 pc's with one disk and they all have a C-partition with the OS and a D-partition, installed by Dell and no issues. The kernel times are very low (1-6%) even when crunching all the cores, and CPU use at 100% kernel keeps low. These systems don't have CUDA capable graphics cards though. I'm suggesting you try this given your circumstances, and the fact that using a partition is not any faster, being the same drive, and may even be slower. If this will be the case and I need to re-install the OS, then I would prefer to use an SSD for the OS and the current disk for all the data (mainly BOINC). That would speed up booting, but you haven't yet determined if there is an issue with the existing drive, some program or Windows that is causing the performance issue, or if you need to update the Bios to better support these GPU's. And perhaps Win7 as well. W7 isn't any faster. If you mostly use it for crunching, what's the point? But skgiven also mentioned that high kernel times indicated a problem. What can that problem be. Disk, OS, driver, some app... Some details might help, but frankly it takes a couple of hours to reinstall an OS from disk and that eliminates swathes of potential problems. Did you check if you Bios has an upgrade that better supports the GPU? If the PC is over than a SSD and all the effort would be a waist of time and money. Any way to check this please? Don't know what you mean? Is it a SATA drive, or an older IDE drive? Did you do a disk check? ____________ FAQ's HOW TO: - Opt out of Beta Tests - Ask for Help | |
ID: 30525 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Yes I did a disk check no issues, memory check also okay. | |
ID: 30526 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
I found how to update the BIOS, not to much trouble. | |
ID: 30530 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
I mean with "the pc is over" that it is dead, something with the MOBO or other hardware than disk drive or memory. Then an SSD has no use. If you have a standard case, replacing the MB is relatively easy and not expensive. First though you have to do your other steps to make sure it IS the MB that's the problem. I would guess not, but it's possible. | |
ID: 30532 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Its is an XFX x58i MOBO and there are no BIOS updates available. | |
ID: 30535 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
I will search for a refurbished Dell and install the GTX660 there. That seems the best way. Not good idea. But will try a OS re-install as well. Good idea. | |
ID: 30536 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
I will search for a refurbished Dell and install the GTX660 there. That seems the best way. Why not? I have several Dell all running flawlessly one for 4 years 24/7 and I installed and de-installed a lot stuff there. Still doing great only a low PSU. ____________ Greetings from TJ | |
ID: 30542 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
I will search for a refurbished Dell and install the GTX660 there. That seems the best way. Generally poor case cooling, poor PS, often crippled proprietary MB. You'd be better off (if the MB is bad) to replace your MB (and case if the cooling isn't sufficient). I repair brand name computers for people all the time. They cut a lot of corners compared to machines that are custom built. But do what makes you feel good. | |
ID: 30545 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
I did a project reset, power down and did a cold boot. | |
ID: 30546 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
At some point in between you said Milkyway was also only running at ~50% GPU utilization. This suggests to me it's either some weird software issue with your Vista install (I'd try Win 7 or 8 next, if you can) or indeed some mainboard strangeness. Since the rig had been running fine before with a smaller card there might be another option: switch that card back in and put the GTX660 into another one of your well-running systems. | |
ID: 30547 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
1124MHz | |
ID: 30552 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Is there a way how I can test if the MOBO is malfunctioning? | |
ID: 30567 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Your issues do not seem to me to be hardware-related, rather software. Something in your setup keeps "stealing" CPU cycles and disk space. | |
ID: 30577 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Or, if you've got some spare drive laying around (could be a super old junk Y30 GB drive) just install testwise onto that one. If everything works well afterwards, it is your installation. If not, it's probably the interaction with the mainboard. | |
ID: 30581 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Could be some junk, it is I suppose. But I have good security software so that's safe. But is seems very likely a software issue. Adobe installed a lot stuff just as Java. I found a bunch old drivers from nVidia and more. Format and totally new is absolutely necessary and will happen as soon as the SSD arrived, or sooner if my other PC finish's the NATHAN WU first. | |
ID: 30588 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Don't know the exact layout,. but any GTX550 should have at least 2 digital outputs. Just take a look at the b*tt of the card ;) | |
ID: 30591 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Don't know the exact layout,. but any GTX550 should have at least 2 digital outputs. Just take a look at the b*tt of the card ;) I know that I have the card in my PC and 2 monitors to it working fine. But I mean, can I place a graphics card in a system without monitors to it. Will it then crunch? Okay the GTX285 is no longer okay, I get the message now :). What about a GTX580 of 560, they have some speedy results I see at times with wingman? Would be nice to have a second card besides the GTX550Ti, which take not to much watt for the PSU (770Watt), not the warm (heat) and not to expensive. ____________ Greetings from TJ | |
ID: 30592 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
As far as I know under Win you'd either need to extend the desktop to the 2nd card, attach a monitor to it, or at least a 2nd cable to an existing monitor or use a VGA dummy. But I'm no multi-GPU expert, maybe there's a way around this by now? | |
ID: 30593 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
All Windows drivers that include CUDA4.2 or newer support a second GPU, without the need to attach a monitor, dummy plug or omnicube. This was introduced well over a year ago. Unless there is some oddity with having 2 monitors supported by one GPU when the other GPU isn't supporting any monitor, I don't think there should be any issue, even with older GPU's. | |
ID: 30594 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Okay my plan didn't work. The PSU is only 375Watt and the GTX660 need at least a PSU of 450 Watt. | |
ID: 30613 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
As I mentioned in my previous message, the i7 was completely installed with new OS, but all was working very slow with the new GTX660 installed, even the browser going to NASA.gov took ages. FF downloading wasn't even possible. | |
ID: 30642 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
I did a little searching about your motherboard. I couldn't find much information about it though - no official info, support site needs registration... Maybe the 660 stresses your PCIe 2.0 slot / bus too much and exposes some minor incompatibility / BIOS bug your motherboard may have Your motherboard supports triple SLI, maybe this causes some trouble. Maybe you have to install additional, motherboard-specific drivers to your Vista installation to make it communicate correctly with your PCIe bus and the card. Maybe the Nvidia drivers you're using aren't fully compatible or have a bug
2. Experiment with your BIOS settings around GPUs, PCIe, SLI, etc. Reset to defaults. Disable any overclocking. 3. Make sure all system hardware is detected in Windows and you have no question marks in the device manager. Use the latest drivers you can get. 4. If you have a spare hard drive, setup another version of Windows (XP or 7), install ONLY basic drivers to get you going (probably just for your network card, ONLY if Windows doesn't recognize it by itself), fully update Windows, THEN install motherboard-specific drivers, THEN install the Nvidia driver. 5. As a last resort, use your 660 with another system.
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ID: 30645 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Thanks for your information Vagelis Giannadakis. | |
ID: 30647 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
What about a friend then? You must have a friend or acquaintance with a system that can handle a 660 and test it for you, no? It's not that we're talking about some experimental, next-gen prototype GPU requiring an internal Thunderbolt port! :D | |
ID: 30648 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Just move the PSU as well as the GTX660 into the other system. That way you will be able to test if the GPU is faulty, and be able to give the PSU a clean. | |
ID: 30649 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
I have opened all my cases and there is no system with a PSU of 450 Watt or more what the GTX660 needs. Thus I can not test it. This certainly isn't set in stone. A quality PS with lower ratings will easily run your GTX 660. Think you said you had a 375 watt PS in another box. Try it. I've run more powerful GPUs than a 660 on 350 watt power supplies with no problems, as have many others. | |
ID: 30650 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
I have opened all my cases and there is no system with a PSU of 450 Watt or more what the GTX660 needs. Thus I can not test it. That is good information Beyond! I was tempted to do so, but checked nVidia's website once more and there was the 450Watt quote. I will set BOINC to no new work and will try this. ____________ Greetings from TJ | |
ID: 30651 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Yeah, those recommendations are pure BS or.. over cautionary, depending on your point of view. I think they assume something along the lines: | |
ID: 30657 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Hi guys, I would like to update you. | |
ID: 30719 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Great, except for the temperature - download MSI Afterburner and use it to increase the fan speed so that it stays below 70°C ;) | |
ID: 30722 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Great, except for the temperature - download MSI Afterburner and use it to increase the fan speed so that it stays below 70°C ;) I used EVGA Precision X to set fan speed on auto. Temperature is now 70-71°C. ____________ Greetings from TJ | |
ID: 30724 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
I set the "old heater" (GTX285) to work again, to increase my RAC ;-) | |
ID: 30741 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Today my second EVGA GTX660 arrived. I built it in beneath the first one in the Alienware. It has no monitor connected and the SLI bridge is not mounted as well. | |
ID: 31155 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
1. http://www.gpugrid.net/forum_thread.php?id=3156&nowrap=true#31007 or read the FAQ's. | |
ID: 31156 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
1. http://www.gpugrid.net/forum_thread.php?id=3156&nowrap=true#31007 or read the FAQ's. Yes very quick skgiven, thanks. I have it placed in the boinc data directory. It was read as you can see: 7/2/2013 4:52:55 PM | | Re-reading cc_config.xml 7/2/2013 4:52:55 PM | | Not using a proxy 7/2/2013 4:52:55 PM | | Config: use all coprocessors 7/2/2013 4:52:55 PM | | log flags: file_xfer, sched_ops, task But still no extra task. I have indeed set EVGA Precision (is same as Afterburner but from EVGA, same menu as well), to autimatic fan control by software and all. In fact I did not change it. The only thing I did was place an extra GTX660 and now one runs hot. There is not a lot of space between both cards though. Do I need to restart the system? Will that kill the part of Nathan's WU already done? Another question. When teh two AMD's (5870) where in the Alienware they were both recognised by BOINC and there was no need for a cc_config. How about that? ____________ Greetings from TJ | |
ID: 31157 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Whats in the first page of your Boinc logs? | |
ID: 31158 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
I have it placed in the boinc data directory. It was read as you can see: There should be at least one slot space between the cards to maintain the temperature. Do I need to restart the system? You don't need to restart the system to activate the changes in the cc_config.xml file, you have to re-read the configuration file as you did. However, if the card is not recoginzed by Windows itself, it may require a system restart. You should check it in the device manager. (Start -> type devmgmt.msc in the search field and press <enter>, click on the + sign beside the display adapters category, and you should see two display adapters by it's actual name ("NVIDIA GeForce GTX660") listed under the category, so "standard VGA adapter" is not appropriate) Will that kill the part of Nathan's WU already done? No, it won't. (At least in most cases) Another question. When teh two AMD's (5870) where in the Alienware they were both recognised by BOINC and there was no need for a cc_config. How about that? It should be the same with NVidia cards as well, however sometimes this cc_config modification is necessary. | |
ID: 31159 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Does Afterburner see both GPUs? If not, how old is the Alienware and what MB is in it? | |
ID: 31160 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Thanks Zoltan I know a little more. | |
ID: 31161 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Does Afterburner see both GPUs? If not, how old is the Alienware and what MB is in it? Both cards are seen by the system and by EVGA NZ and EVGA Precision and GPU-Z. But that was after I place a monitor in the second card. The Alienware is almost 3 years old. ____________ Greetings from TJ | |
ID: 31162 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Either rebooting allowed the driver installation to complete and Boinc to see both cards, or the issue was with two monitors being hooked up to the one card. | |
ID: 31164 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
There were no drivers updated as already exact the same card was running in the system. | |
ID: 31165 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
I'm not talking about a driver update, just installing it for the hardware. The driver still has to be registered against a new card before Boinc or any other app (EVGA Precision) will recognize it. Also, if you start Boinc then install the driver it wont see the GPU until you restart. Reading cc_config won't make it see the GPU either. | |
ID: 31169 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
I'm not talking about a driver update, just installing it for the hardware. The driver still has to be registered against a new card before Boinc or any other app (EVGA Precision) will recognize it. Also, if you start Boinc then install the driver it wont see the GPU until you restart. Reading cc_config won't make it see the GPU either. Okay in that case you where right (again :-) ). Then replacing the monitor with an off system can have easily have nothing to do with it. I will test this with Milkyway (short run) when Nathan's are finished. There is no room in the Alienware to place more coolers, in fron is a big fan, blowing towards the GPU's, but in the back is a fan with the radiator of the liquid cooling. I will remove one GTX660 and try it in another system tomorrow. And than it is waiting for a new system. So my RAC will not built up soon. But I have again learned today, which is nice. ____________ Greetings from TJ | |
ID: 31170 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Maybe some time you could hook both monitors back up to the one GPU and reboot to see if that was the issue? If you do let us know either way. As promised I tried this. Turned of the PC and put both monitors to one card. There is no SLI connecter fitted. I boot the system and BOINC does see two GPU's. To be sure I am now crunching little MilkyWay on two GPU's. One is at 63°C and the other 57° with 70-72% GPU load, both. ____________ Greetings from TJ | |
ID: 31179 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Thanks TJ, that eliminates concerns over running two monitors from one GPU when you have two GPU's. | |
ID: 31186 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Thanks TJ, that eliminates concerns over running two monitors from one GPU when you have two GPU's. Your very welcome. I got a lot of help here, so glad I can contribute a tiny little bit. ____________ Greetings from TJ | |
ID: 31187 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
One very interesting thing (for me). | |
ID: 31188 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
One very interesting thing (for me). One reason is that the 285 is much slower than the 660 and needs far less GPU support (yet the 285 uses far more electricity) :-( You need to reserve more CPU for the 660 to allow it to run optimally. | |
ID: 31189 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
One very interesting thing (for me). When a GPUGrid workunit runs on a Kepler based GPU, it will use a full CPU thread (core, if the CPU is not hyperthreaded). That it was to much for me to watch. So I powered it down opened the case and put the old solid GTX285 back in. Powered it up and the WU started on the GTX660, continues on the GTX285. Amazing! That is how it should be :) I did similar changes without loosing a workunit. Six Rosies are crunching happily on the CPU... Rosetta@home is a tricky application. Sometimes it could use up to 600 Mbytes of RAM, and read-write 100s of MBytes to the HDD (SSD) at startup. Beside of that, I've found out that it won't gain much RAC when more R@h workuntis running than the number of CPU cores (in your case 4). So when a GPUGrid workunit takes a full thread, there is no point to run R@h applications on hyperhtreaded cores. and the Kernel times are very low, almost not to see. The GPUGrid application does not need a full CPU core to feed pre-Kepler GPUs. So I will leave this system run as it until in dies. Its MARS, and visible, but it shows still a GTX660. It will show the correct GPU after your BOINC client communicates with the GPUGrid server. | |
ID: 31192 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Thanks for the explanation Zoltan. | |
ID: 31194 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
I put the left over GTX660 in my quad core Vista x86, 24/7 system and just as Beyond predicted, it runs fine with a PSU of only 380Watt. | |
ID: 31206 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
The time estimate for a Nathan LR is 30 hours. Two Einstein WU run on the CPU, but have set to no new work, to see if that changes anything. However I think estimation is wrong as it does ~8% in an hour. The estimates don't mean much, sounds like around 12.5 hours. Not bad conidering it's throttled. Why will the fan only go to 74%? You could try setting: "On multiprocessor systems use at most 90% of the processors" in BOINC to reserve another core and see if the GPU utilization goes up. Don't change the "Use at most 100% CPU time" though. | |
ID: 31210 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
The time estimate for a Nathan LR is 30 hours. Two Einstein WU run on the CPU, but have set to no new work, to see if that changes anything. However I think estimation is wrong as it does ~8% in an hour. That seem the be the maximum of these cards. Skgiven has the same, he even downgraded the nVidia drivers. With the EVGA software, afterburner, set the fan curve manually to 100% from 50°C does not help. In the programs, Afterburner and EVGA are two yellow lines, it seems that the fan speed can (an will) only operate between both lines. The quad is set to use only 3 cores, so 1 for GPU and 2 for CPU and one free. If Einstein is finished GPU has 4 CPU for its one, see what that does in a few hours. ____________ Greetings from TJ | |
ID: 31212 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
I put the left over GTX660 in my quad core Vista x86, 24/7 system and just as Beyond predicted, it runs fine with a PSU of only 380Watt. Seems not good. Two Nathans have failed with the ACMD message on the screen. There is now a third one in process, if that fails I will update from 3.14 to 3.20 driver for a last test. Then I swap the cards and wait for a new system. On the GTX285 one Santi SR failed but looking at the tasks there where more errors of these today. So that seems coincidence. The old T7400 is happily crunching on the GTX660. Pity only one cards fits. If the 690's where no so expensive... ____________ Greetings from TJ | |
ID: 31214 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Seems not good. Two Nathans have failed with the ACMD message on the screen. Although I do not know what ACMD means, but two Nathans failed in a row as well, the last with a bluescreen. Both on my GTX570, which normaly does not have mayor problems. So you are not alone and it might not be your system. | |
ID: 31220 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Seems not good. Two Nathans have failed with the ACMD message on the screen. Thanks for your info, that is a relief (for my system). I must have said ACEMD.286, its the program that runs in the task manager, its to feed the GPU I guess, that pops up as an error message. ____________ Greetings from TJ | |
ID: 31222 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
When you get a failure, restart the system. Then give it a few days before you go mad installing and reinstalling drivers. | |
ID: 31235 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
I don't go mad, I am always calm and patient when I make things (I don't break them) ;-) | |
ID: 31238 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
This morning I replace the GTX660 for the GTX550Ti, as the 660 went the warm in the case and it will go back in the Alienware as soon the CPU cooler arrives. | |
ID: 31244 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
It's downclocking. | |
ID: 31245 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
It's downclocking. That was the first thing that I did when the card was in the system and it booted after the second time. You told me that earlier and I am a good learner. So that doesn't help, more idea's. I dragged the GPU clock slider into the 1500's hit apply and the system booted with an error of the GPUGRID WU off course my fault. After I installed the card I did an drive update from 314 to 320.18, could that be the cause? ____________ Greetings from TJ | |
ID: 31246 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
It's better to do a clean install (advanced), rather than an upgrade, especially when changing cards. | |
ID: 31247 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
It's better to do a clean install (advanced), rather than an upgrade, especially when changing cards. I did the clean install, and did indeed reinstall precision X as well after deinstalling it first. Not GPU-Z though (but use that almost not). If it still runs without error I let it go, and then downgrade to 314. If an error appears than I downgrade immediately. ____________ Greetings from TJ | |
ID: 31251 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Are you running 4 CPU work units on that system? If so, reduce it to 3. Presumably you tried restarting? | |
ID: 31252 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Are you running 4 CPU work units on that system? If so, reduce it to 3. Presumably you tried restarting? No maximum 2 CPU, but currently zero, to see if that did anything, but no. Yes restarting a few times after the ACEM program crach ____________ Greetings from TJ | |
ID: 31253 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
The GTX550Ti GPU should be ~900MHz when crunching. 400MHz means it's definitely downclocked, but what's causing it is the question? | |
ID: 31254 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
The GTX550Ti GPU should be ~900MHz when crunching. 400MHz means it's definitely downclocked, but what's causing it is the question? Yes thanks I will do that skgiven. It is still maximum performance. It has now done 2.358% in 02:03:04 hours so it will take 100 hours to complete. I will update soon, one more loss of a WU can't hurt. But the coolers arrived, so I first get the Alienware crunching again. One is an Intel original, feels heavy, they smeared 3 stripes of paste on it with the idea that is flows evenly when running hot....???? But it will fit in the case. The one I try first is a Shuriken B 64mm in height 100mm fan. ____________ Greetings from TJ | |
ID: 31255 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
I have installed driver 314.22, is set to maximum performance. It has booted 3 times after and one time even powered down completely. | |
ID: 31259 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
What about temperatures? You said 65C when running MilkyWay, what about when running GPUGRID? | |
ID: 31264 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
What about temperatures? You said 65C when running MilkyWay, what about when running GPUGRID? I don´t know as the card will not crunch GG yet. ____________ Greetings from TJ | |
ID: 31279 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
When siting in the sun, I thought about GPU´s. | |
ID: 31281 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Forget about Fermi now, they're just wasteful compared to Keplers. They're not as bad as to retire them immediately, but don't anyone buy another one of them for crunching. And especially don't anyone buy a Tesla for crunching! They're only worth their price if you make a living from crunching on them. | |
ID: 31288 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Okay thanks I won't. | |
ID: 31291 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
I have my i7-3770K's integrated GPU driving the monitor. Alas, it's not very good and I didn't notice any significant benefit WRT using the two (and previously three) NVidia GPUs for crunching, which was at least in part the purpose of getting that CPU and that motherboard. It's really not worth it, unless you are going to utilize the iGPU on a project in which case its REALLY not worth it, as in you have wasted your money on a CPU instead of a real GPU. | |
ID: 31297 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
31.7°C is not friendly. I know, only one small window, and a fan blowing air out. When summer really hits, it can become 35°C with only one PC active, I need one at least. ____________ Greetings from TJ | |
ID: 31301 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
The GPU clock went to 974MHz, but all GPUGRID WU's have failed within a few seconds afterwards. Four errors in a row. I slowly become mad.... Shouldn't that GPU be running at 900MHz? That could be the reason for the failures, when you uninstall Precision X and After Burner, do you remove the profiles too? If you don't, they could be kicking in again as soon as windows starts, I had it happen to me after uninstalling Precision X and leaving the profiles behind. | |
ID: 31320 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
The GPU clock went to 974MHz, but all GPUGRID WU's have failed within a few seconds afterwards. Four errors in a row. I slowly become mad.... I don't know about the clock. It 951MHz did it when I first installed it, and saw that a few days ago still. It did the Einstein WU's overnight. I have now set the clock to 900MHz and it is doing a Nathan LR at the moment. What will happen when I reduce the Mem clock? It set itself to 2178MHz. Skigven adviced to set it to 400 if it wouldn't work, but as it does, I left the "standard" setting. Indeed good tip about the profiles, but at de-installing I got that message so I removed the profiles as well. ____________ Greetings from TJ | |
ID: 31321 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
I guess you can wait and see what happens now, come to think of it, I was using both After Burner and Precision X when that weird problem happened with profiles loading and the apps had been uninstalled. The memory runs at 4100MHz so that should be 2050MHz to get it at stock speeds and stable with the GPU at 900MHz. | |
ID: 31327 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
When I lower the voltage little from the GTX550Ti, I see that the GPU clock stays the same (I brought it up to 918 slowly) but temperature dropped from 73 to 69°C and GPU load stays the same (91%). | |
ID: 31336 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
So long as that voltage works its a good setting as it saves you electric and reduces heat output. | |
ID: 31337 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
So long as that voltage works its a good setting as it saves you electric and reduces heat output. Thanks I leave that GTX550Ti as it is, I am to happy that it is working fine again at 69° But on the other quad the 660 is running at 74°C. I would like to have that little lower. But with Precision X or Afterburner it is impossible to lower (or increase) the Core Voltage (not selectable). Both EVGA cards both same Precision X version but with different setting. Is that something from the card? Can it be passed in a way to lower that voltage little? ____________ Greetings from TJ | |
ID: 31338 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Thanks I leave that GTX550Ti as it is, I am to happy that it is working fine again at 69° I'm using MSI Afterburner 2.3.0 and I can reduce the Core Voltage (mV), the power limit (%), Core Clock (MHz) and Memory Clock (MHz). W7, 314.22. Reducing any of these should result in the use of less power, though reducing the Voltage could result in failures (but you don't know until you try). ____________ FAQ's HOW TO: - Opt out of Beta Tests - Ask for Help | |
ID: 31339 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
On your GTX660 an in fact all Keplers with boost, simply reduce the power target until the GPU reduces clock speed and voltage itself. This way you're guaranteed to remain stable, become more energy efficient and lower the heat output. All at a relatively small performance loss. | |
ID: 31340 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
Ah I see. I asked because the other GTX660 is in the T7400 and I have not set or changed anything there. Plugged it in, update to latest nVidia driver, set Precision X to automatic control temperature (not changed its curve) and let it run. It is running at 1123MHz and 1,162V at a steady 66°C for almost 82 hours non stop and GPU load around 85%. Nice I thought I will try that with my other 660 as well, but that´s another rig. | |
ID: 31341 | Rating: 0 | rate: / Reply Quote | |
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